The Ghost of the North Centre Bastion, Dover UK (1a)

John Latter, on April 2, 2007, said:

(Also see: Satellite view of the North Center Bastion annotated with tunnel system locations, surface features, drawbridges, etc.)

This photo of Tunnel 1 (looking north and downwards towards the caponnier) has a 'smokey effect' in the first archway. The tunnel is actually very dark and the apparent illumination is entirely due to the flash.

When I first looked at this image after loading it on to my computer yesterday, I zoomed in to see what the 'smokiness' was because there was nothing showing on the two preceding pictures taken from further up the tunnel (behind the viewer).

To my eyes, the top part of the blue smokiness looks quite like a sideview of a child's head and upper body.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in esoteric things like astrology, ghosts, etc., but I can see how unexpected results like this can give rise to such speculations.

I'll be posting this in the Panoramio Forum and will report any constructive conclusions - I'll be more receptive to "Oh that effect is well known, it's caused by..." rather than "Oh my God - that's a Ghost!!".

The smokiness is obviously clearer on the "original size" but the best way to view it (in my humble opinion) is to save the image and then use a viewer with a variable zoom (my Windows Viewer allows use of the mouse wheel for this).

It was only as a result of rapidly zooming in and out that I felt (deletes "stupid") brave enough to put pen to paper (ok, finger to letter key) and describe the image as anything other than "Underground tunnel leading to the Caponnier.

Two other photos have a different kind of 'oddity' - for want of a better description, a 'blue ball' - and I'll be uploading them in due course. Several other photos have what appears to be a 'secondary effect' in the form of 'soap bubbles'.

John Latter, on April 5, 2007, said:

Re: "I'll be posting this in the Panoramio Forum and will report any constructive conclusions"

A chap posted a link to Fortean Times. I've registered but the account isn't fully activated yet.

John Latter, on April 6, 2007, said:

As I said at the end of the first Comment, a different type of 'Optical Oddity' showed up on some of the other photos I took.

Apparently these are known as 'Orbs' - see the Comments on the first image:

Blue Orb 1 (with secondary characteristics)

Blue Orb 2 (no secondaries)

John Latter, on April 9, 2007, said:

Link Correction to Comment 1

Also see: Satellite view of the North Center Bastion annotated with tunnel system locations, surface features, drawbridges, etc.

(Alt: North Centre Bastion)

Mick Flynn, on April 9, 2007, said:

Yes, it certainly looks like a child, but I don't believe in ghosts anyway. I recently set up a video camera in my kitchen, turned out the light, and using infra-red, whilst shaking my pullover out of camera shot, I managed to record some ghostly looking 'orbs'.

John Latter, on April 9, 2007, said:

Thank you for the comment Mick.

I don't believe in ghosts and until ten days ago, I hadn't even heard of orbs. By now, of course, I am pretty much something of a world expert :)

From what I've seen, there are orbs and there are orbs and at the moment I'm engaged in a forum discussion with someone who appears knowledgable about these things. Its not that I feel any need to argue a supernatural cause for those in the photos I took, its just that I want to know what the basic characteristics/parameters are.

Indeed, in addition to environmental factors such as dust and moisture, I'm offered another possibility that they may also be caused by fungal spores. This photo shows a fungus which grows on the tunnel walls and I've wondered if there were any smaller colonies on the orb tunnel walls.

My primary interests in Dover's North Centre Bastion are its history and the enjoyment I've had in exploring it since I was about 6 (though I was first taken there when I was about 3).

Over the years, I've also had a great deal of pleasure from showing people around the complex - particularly 'townies', and particularly those whose imaginations are fired by what they see: "Wow - what's that? Can we go down there??".

Any visit produces experiences ranging from fear to exhilaration. Just to have photos where the question "What do these mean?" can be asked is more than sufficient for my needs. Irrespective of whether or not the mist and orbs are of mundane origin, the photos add to the 'mystique' of the place, rather than detract.

The photos add an extra dimension - I'm absolutely delighted to have them!

John

Mick Flynn, on April 10, 2007, said:

The 'orbs' I captured on video were definitely dust particles, which, of course, were out of focus, so appeared large and fuzzy, but the other effect I got was a streaking caused by the videos slow shutter speed, which gave the appearance of an arm moving across the field of view.

My wife viewed the film, and nearly called an exorcist.

As for your 'orbs', I have a bunch of pictures taken with my wifes camera, which have the same orbs, and they are taken in areas without fungus.

What type of camera are you using?

John Latter, on April 10, 2007, said:

I offered the fungal spores as another possibility for some of the orbs on the tunnel photos.

Quite frankly, unless I was able to associate a speck of dust with a particular primary or secondary orb, and then be able to examine that speck under a microscope, then I don't see how I could come to any definite conclusion as to the orb's origin.

What is 'a speck of dust' anyway? In human households, the majority - but only the majority - of dust particles are from skin. In the tunnels any speck could be skin (not necessarily human - or even skin for that matter, maybe some other kind of biological origin), brick dust, chalk dust, rust, and goodness knows what else. At this level, would an orb caused by a fungal spore appear any different to any other cause?

I have an interest in the evolutionary origins of psychological trauma and it wasn't unexpected to find in forums discussing orbs the background noise of psychological abuse.

The most general form I've seen so far is where someone says "What is this?", and the answer comes back (with respect to orbs) "Dust/moisture/whatever". If the original poster then queries it, or doesn't appear to accept it immediately, then the degree of disturbance this creates in the person who answered can be 'substantial'.

Its the result of transformaing human beings into biological programmable pavlovian computers, with an overdependence on logic, and with the subsequent need to program everyone else in the same way. That's cultural conditioning for you (particularly religion).

The above apparent digression can be related to Einstein's observation: "If we knew what we were doing we wouldn't call it research would we?".

In other words, if I examined the sources of all the secondary orbs on the tunnel photos and found 100% of them to be due to chalk particles, and then tried to impose or project that belief onto every other orb photo in the world, well, as far as making progress in research is concerned, you can forget it.

At the moment, someone has promised to compare a close-up of the primary orb in this photo of Blue Orb 1 with that of an orb whose characteristics are less easily explained by dust/moisture/etc,. And, more importantly, to let me know what the criteria are,

That's as about as much as I'm interested in. As I said above, these 'optical oddities' only add an extra dimension to my interest in the North Centre Bastion.

On the other hand, if anything else turns up in future expeditions then I will see where my curiouity leads me. I certainly won't be impressed by anyone trying to impose their beliefs onto an experience they weren't part of - that's the basic mechanism whereby trauma is passed from one generation to the next.

I've seen photos taken in another part of the Western Heights (the Drop Redoubt) where a chap set the shutter speed to manual and then walked up a flight of steps carrying a torch - that produced a rather impressive-looking streak but it would be difficult to see how it could be taken for anything other than what it was.

I've got a 3 megapixel Pentax. I've had it for about 3 years but have only been using it for the last 6 or 7 weeks - and I'm saving up for a better one :)

It's just struck me that this is the 'mist' photo page so I may move this conversation over.

John

Mick Flynn, on April 10, 2007, said:

I wasn't suggesting that fungal spores could not cause orbs, but the orbs I recorded on video were definitely dust, as I was shaking my pullover to cause the dust.

The orbs on the pictures taken with my wifes camera are probably light refraction on a dirty lens, and not particles at all.

I feel that I could recreate the orbs with very little effort, but I'm sure there is a full (and correct) explanation out there already.

When I used to do my own B/W developing and printing I was able to do some pretty good 'ghost' shots using long exposures and flash (slaved off the camera).

The reason I asked what camera you used was because, if your Pentax has the facility for long exposures, you could paint the scenes using a handheld flashgun.

Mick Flynn, on April 10, 2007, said:

Here's one from my wifes camera, with loads of 'orbs' ...it was a dirty lens.

Picture

John Latter, on April 10, 2007, said:

but I'm sure there is a full (and correct) explanation out there already.

Canon published a technical letter regarding orbs which I put on the Blue Orb 1 page a few days ago.

I'm not very experienced at photography but I thought my digital camera had a setting equivalent to (if I remember correctly) the 'B' setting on a 35mm Yashica camera I had years ago: the shutter stayed open for as long as it was pressed.

Apparently it doesn't - but that's not a problem because I'm not going out of my way to photograph orbs!

In fact, I already have a third 'Blue Orb' photo. It's one of a sequence of drawbridge 1's counterweights and the orb in question 'appears' to be on one arch with one side truncated by the arch in front. The reason I haven't uploaded it is because I wanted the best shot of the counterweights, not the orb.

I'm relatively more interested in the 'misty' shots such as the one at the top of this page. Having said that, the next time I go into the North Center Bastion all I'm going to do is take more note of what appears in the LCD monitor after I've taken the shot.

Your wife's photo doesn't so much contain orbs as an epidemic or orbs! :)

From what I've read in the forums, the lack of 'density' of the orbs readily indicates they are not of any significance.

SarpBKS, on April 12, 2007, said:

Woow... John.. The Ghost tunel.

John Latter, on April 12, 2007, said:

"Woow... John.. The Ghost tunel."

I have to go back sometime (deletes "once I've plucked up the courage") for photos of stuff I missed - it'll be interesting to see if anything else turns up! :)

smargroth (www.marsnjak.com), on April 12, 2007, said:

On my LCD monitor (which has high brightness), I originaly don't see anything. But, if I increase the gamma in my image editor, then I could see the "ghost".

It seems to me like a squatting human skeleton with horizontaly stretched arms. Maybe he is warming up the hands by some invisible fire? :)

John Latter, on April 12, 2007, said:

Thank you for the comment Smargoth - not least because it might help others who have LCD monitors!

I described the smokiness (apparently 'mistiness' is a more appropriate term) as a 'child' because of the relative proportion of head to body. Its going to be interesting to see how the photos turn out the next time I go up there :)

Marco Ferrari, on April 12, 2007, said:

A purpose of ghosts:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1286353

but in this case they are my friends. :-)

Hi!

grumpos, on April 18, 2007, said:

I don't believe in any of this ghost nonsense but I wouldn't go in there if you paid me. :)

John Latter, on April 18, 2007, said:

grumpos said:

"I don't believe in any of this ghost nonsense but I wouldn't go in there if you paid me. :)"

I don't believe in ghosts either, grumpos, but the 'optical oddity' photos do add an extra interest!

I went back to the North Centre Bastion today (April 18, 2007), got quite a few images with 'environmental orbs' on plus one with smokiness/mistiness.

The only one I've uploaded so far, however, is a self-timer shot of myself - and it might require more courage for anyone to view it than it takes to enter the tunnel systems :)

Basically the North Centre Bastion is exciting and frightening enough without any paranormal dimension.

John Latter, on April 20, 2007, said:

I've uploaded an 'enhanced version' of this photo, particularly for the benefit of people using LCD monitors.

Please read the appended comment to the enhanced version to see exactly what I did to the original photo.

rosina lamberti, on April 20, 2007, said:

ghosts, would u believe we have several around our home, witness by many non believers they(ghost)turn my radio louder, turn off lights and send shivers up my back and your photos still scare me ::))

John Latter, on April 20, 2007, said:

rosina lamberti said:

ghosts, would u believe we have several around our home, witness by many non believers they(ghost)turn my radio louder, turn off lights and send shivers up my back and your photos still scare me ::))

Unfortunately, I haven't had any paranormal experiences at all :(

When I first began talking about the 'odd' effects on some of my photos, I half expected to be ridiculed but I've been surprised by how many of my friends and acquaintances have their own story to tell - either a personal one or of someone they know.

I don't know for sure how I would react if I had ghosts like yours but I do know one part of me would be absolutely delighted - it's a shame you find them scarey! :)

Also, I've got another 'smokiness' image from a visit to the Bastion three days ago but I haven't uploaded it yet

John Latter, on April 22, 2007, said:

John Latter said:

Also, I've got another 'smokiness' image from a visit to the Bastion three days ago but I haven't uploaded it yet

Here it is:

Original Image

Enhanced Version

Jessica G., on October 6, 2007, said:

I see the "smokiness" in the archway, but did you notice there's another ghost sitting against the wall on the right-hand side?

VKeith, on October 6, 2007, said:

Whoah! Dudette (Phoenix)! You are so right!

John Latter, on October 6, 2007, said:

Phoenix51200 said:

I see the "smokiness" in the archway, but did you notice there's another ghost sitting against the wall on the right-hand side?

Yes, Phoenix, I did - but it took a week or so to do so! Someone else noticed it on one of the paranormal forums the photo was posted to, too, but no-one picked up on it and I just let it ride.

To me, it feels like someone with drawn-up knees whose arm is outstretched so that their hand (or hands) is directly below, and connected to, that of the 'child' in the doorway.

As an aside, I received an email today from a medium who intends visiting Dover's Cowgate Cemetery at the of this month:

...The plan is that we meet at the cemetery gates at 6pm (when it’s getting dark but not dark enough to lose any of you down holes!) I’ll bring an EMF meter and we can check the place out and see if there’s anybody there! This being thirsty work we thought we’d adjourn to the bar at the Churchill Hotel afterwards ...

This'll be the first medium I've ever met (and the first 'vigil', if that's the correct term, I've been on) and I like the idea of recovering in a bar afterwards! :)

She appears to be quite well-known on both sides of the Atlantic so it'll be an experience in a number of ways. If I get any interesting photos then I'll post a link here.

John Latter, on October 7, 2007, said:

John Latter said:

This'll be the first medium I've ever met (and the first 'vigil', if that's the correct term, I've been on) and I like the idea of recovering in a bar afterwards!

Apparently its not going to be as 'grand' an occasion as I first thought: the plan is to only spend an hour in the cemetery before retiring to the bar!

I'm not sure what can be achieved in such a short space of time. At the moment I'm waiting to see whether another chap I know is going to go or if we should go ahead with some plans we were making of our own.

's interesting stuff, though :)

John Latter, on October 9, 2007, said:

English Heritage Pastscape has the following entry for the North Centre Bastion:

NMR Number: TR 34 SW 514

URL: North Centre Bastion

North Centre Bastion was begun in 1804 during the Napoleonic Wars, as part of the Western Heights fortress in Dover. It remained unfinished at the end of the war in 1815 but was completed to a revised design between 1859 and 1867; this resulted in two linked bastions known as North Centre Bastion and Detached Bastion.